Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nenad Stanković

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Due to the sheer size of this debate I was a little worried in closing it, but the deletes have both the numbers and the better arguments, ergo consensus. Wizardman 19:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nenad Stanković[edit]

A footballer who plays in the top division of the Faroe Islands league, which is clearly not fully professional, and therefore he fails WP:ATHLETE. Was prodded, but removed by the article's creator with the rationale "delete irrelevant". пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 22:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 22:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Hmm. Seems like it should be deleted. But yet... --Meldshal [discuss] {contribs} 22:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Doesn't seem to have played at a notable level in his entire career. – Pee Jay 23:02, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete playing in the Faroese top flight is not a proof of notability. --Angelo (talk) 00:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. – LATICS talk 04:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I migy'sht argue that the top flight of Ireland or Lithuania might well be notable, even if only mostly professional. But even the inclusionist I am thinks that this is going a bit far. Nfitz (talk) 04:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You know I wonder what Rangers think of Kaunas now that they got bundled out by what most think as part-timers... Also my favourites Dynamo Kyiv had a handful from Drogheda United and should of also been eliminated!!!!

Delete per nom. Giant Snowman 11:31, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep Don't you guys have anything better to do? NSI constantly participates in Champions League, Stankovic was voted the best player in the league. This is just ridiculous The Faroe islands league is a semi-professional league, with players getting a small salary. --Shustfan (talk) 15:46, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- At least get your facts right before accusing people of being ridiculous. NSI have won one title in their entire history. This means they have played in the Champions League once. For all of two matches (obviously they lost in the first qualifying round). Plus the fact that the league is semi-professional is totally irrelevant. WP:ATHLETE states "fully professional league". The 10th level (and even some 11th level clubs) in England is semi-pro - are players at that level notable? пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 16:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd think that if the players are truely notable, even playing for a team like this, then they would be getting media coverage. However I couldn't see any for this player. But if there is media coverage, then they can always achieve notability under WP:N. Nfitz (talk)
  - The league does get some media coverage at Faroe Islands soccer news, results and information, also NSI won their last champions league game against Dinamo Tbilisi [1].--Shustfan (talk) 19:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - And yet I can't find a single media reference to him - [2]. Is something wrong with my search parameters? Nfitz (talk) 19:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - The fact that they won the second leg of the match is totally irrelevant - they lost the first leg 3-0 and therefore are out of the competition. How is this contributing to his notability? пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 22:01, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Dinamo Tbilisi is a powerful Georgian club winning many trophies, and for NSI to beat them makes the club definetaly notable. Plus, Stankovic is the leading figure in the club.--Shustfan (talk) 21:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Which all sounds great - but why then are there no media references? Unless there are some hidden somewhere, I think you'll have better success arguing his past history in Serbia. Nfitz (talk) 23:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Nenad Stanković is definitely an important figure in Faroese football, as he was the named the Best Player of the previous season. However, he has not only played in the Formuladeildin. He played football in Yugoslavian clubs (later Serbia and Montenegro) and only came to the Faroe Islands a few years ago. [3] NSI participates in UEFA Cup and Champions League, and definitely gets a lot of media coverage. A vital player for the team should have an article because he is notable. --Boguslav (talk) 20:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- He played in the regional second division in Serbia, which I very much doubt is a fully professional league; even when it was consolidated into a single division the year after he left for the Faroes, the average attendance was 700, with 10 of the 20 clubs having sub-500 crowds. When there were 40 clubs in the regional divisions, I suspect the average was much lower, and therefore unable to support fully professional clubs. пﮟოьεԻ 57 21:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'm removing my delete pending further information about his playing history in Serbia. Nfitz (talk) 21:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. For one, I don't think it's fair to compare sizes of Premier Leagues, based solely on hard numbers. If you'd base them on percentages, which probably is the most fair way to do it, it should be done like this. Second, I thought the Wikipedia strived for thoroughness, so a player playing in a country's Premier League, should be on the Wiki. Mulder1982 (talk) 02:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. What next; players from the Andorran Premier League, or the American Samoa Premier League. He clearly fails WP:ATHLETE, which was developed for a reason. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 08:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. To hell with the guidelines. WP:IAR. I think Mulder1982 is correct. Nfitz (talk) 06:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment So, let's open up the doors to all the Sanmarinese, Andorran and Liechtenstein player around. No matter they play football in their spare time with no hope or chance whatsoever to break into professional football. They're part of a top flight team, even if from a country with a population of 20,000, so who cares? Obviously I do not support this view of the things, so here I am to openly challenge it. --Angelo (talk) 08:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Hey, if the player is or was notbale, they obviously deserve and NEED an article. If, for example, a winner of the Ballon d'Or moved to the Faroese league before retirement, would that automatically make him not notable? Just because the footballer now plays in a semi-professional league he should be deleted? Come one guys, be reasonable. The league that someone currently plays in is not the only way to determine notability. --Boguslav M 17:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - What if this Faroese player did not actually win the Ballon d'Or? What if he just worked out as a carpenter in his whole life, playing football only in his spare time just for fun? I know for good Faroese footballers have a part-time job in real life, even national team players, and I can provide you a lot of sources confirming what I'm saying. Your example just makes no sense to me. --Angelo (talk) 18:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - Also, but that player would be notable because he's played in a fully professional league in the past. This guy has not done that. Ergo he fails WP:ATHLETE. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 18:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP:ATHLETE BanRay 09:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. It seems there is profound discrimination against players from nations are the bottom of the FIFA rankings. If a player is celebrated in The Faroes, Andorra, American Samoa, or The Heard Islands - Give the player that recogition. If you're not interested in adding details about such an Athlete, there seems to be many out that do. So go find the Athletes that you want write about and stop wasting valuable time! Brudder Andrusha (talk) 13:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not "discrimination"; it's fact. Players in the top division of a country of less than 50,000 people are not notable. Can anyone voting !keep here actually cite a policy or guideline other that WP:ILIKEIT or WP:IAR? пﮟოьεԻ 57 13:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Well there is WP:BIAS and WP:National bias. Though not policy, there are efforts being made to avoid the traditional Anglo-American biases. Nfitz (talk) 21:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment Players of those nationalities are not discriminated against. If he moved to a professional foreign club then he would be valid for inclusion immediately. By the same extent there are no articles about the top English pelota players or Chadian polo players. That's because, while the best in their country, they are minor players in light of the sport as a whole. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 15:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - The fact is that he started out in a fully professional league and is now in a semi-professional league. He now plays in an important Faroese club. He is clearly notable! --Boguslav M 17:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - When did he play in a fully professional league? пﮟოьεԻ 57 18:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - Well, he is playing in the highest level league that its possible in the location he is at. Also as a foreigner there what is he doing there for a living? If it wasn't for his football activities I guess his profession would be "professional bludger" trying to make a living. As far as I'm concerned he is very professional. Would a hooker who screws around for $10 and does it once a month be any different from the high classed one who has an internet site and serves the govenor? Both are quite professional! Maybe in different leagues but very, very professional. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 02:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        That's a truly mind-bogglingly daft argument, I have to say. Are you arguing that any sportsperson who receives even a tiny stipend for playing is in your eyes a professional? Like, for example, players in the Combined Counties Football League who get about GB£30 a game? Clearly a "professional" in the sporting context refers to someone who earns enough from their sporting activities not to have to also have a 9 to 5 job. As for what this guy might do for a living, well he presumably does do something, and the fact that we don't know what it is is irrelevant to this debate. And as for the argument that "he is playing in the highest level league that its possible in the location he is at", well I knew a guy who played in the highest level baseball league in England, he got no payment whatsoever and the matches were played in a public park - would you say he should get an article for having played "in the highest level league that its possible in the location he is at".......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:10, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Obviously you don't have any wikipedian following the sport (baseball in Pommyland) who would give the player some sort of mention here. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 11:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- - Delete Lack of notability. I'm afraid I'm unconvinced, even if he really is the country's top player he plays at the semi-professional level which is not enough, especially as he doesn't pass general notability rules. At 50'000 people, the Faroe Islands are no bigger than a smallish town. Therefore it makes sense that the league is not of a high quality and thus not professional. An equivalent would be trying to create articles for players who play in Rugby town's league. Except that more people live in Rugby... Sillyfolkboy (talk) 04:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Hmmm... And I'm unconvinced that just because Faroes have 50,000 people living there and England has nearly 50,000,000 that you would dimish the need not to reference. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 11:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - sorry, but the guy plays in a semi-pro league which draws a few hundred fans per game, so it would be no different to creating articles on players who play for Margate F.C. The fact that it is the top league in a country with a population which could fit comfortably into Anfield is irrelevant. Note that I might have !voted to keep if the subject passed WP:BIO but there appear to be no sources available to satisfy that -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:10, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - the player is well-known on Faroe Islands , he got some titles with NSI Runavik and I think he deserves to have a place on wikipedia Bartekos (talk) 10:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Then he should be appearing in Faroe newspaper articles (do they have newspapers there?). If you could pull out a few, that might help. Nfitz (talk) 19:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The salient argument here is the one about the English baseball league. We do not consider every nation to be equal when it comes to sport, because in some countries more sports are popular. There are lots of articles on players from Glasgow Rangers; rather less many from Glasgow Rangers. We don't scale down notability requirements based on the population of countries, just as we don't insist that the only American athletes we include are the top 10% earnings-wise because there are so many of them. The best football team in the Faroes is still... a football team in the Faroes. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The editor above says "to hell with guidelines". I have to disagree, but maybe I would say that, heh. This player does not meet the current benchmarks for notability, and if he is not professional, then surely that means he cannot met them until he is professional? doktorb _words^deeds 18:43, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete clearly fails notability at WP:ATHLETE having not played in a professionl league or competition. Fails WP:BIO. --Jimbo^[online] 19:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Um... yes he has. Serbian league, Serbian cup, Faroe Islands Premier League, Faroe islands cup, UEFA Champions League, UEFA Cup. --Boguslav M 23:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - You're absolutely having a laugh if you're claiming the Faroese League and Cup are fully professional. Even User:Shustfan, this article's creator, states further up this debate that it is not. No sources have been found to prove that he played at a professional level in Serbia. And playing for a semi-pro team in the qualifying rounds of a European competition (if it can even be confirmed he did) doesn't confer notability any more than playing for West Allotment Celtic in the qualifying rounds of the FA Cup does....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Well, he DID play in Champions league matches recently, and was a starter in a win [4] for his club and a loss [5]. I'm pretty sure that playing in Champions League matches, among many other things, and winning makes a footballer notable. --Boguslav M 18:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. He's close with the Faroe Islands player of the year [6] (not sure if that's a 100% RS), but I don't think there's enough here to invoke use of WP:IAR. If people could provide some newspaper articles or verify Bogulav's claim that he played in the Champions League (my research is showing he didn't), I'd be open to changing my vote. As is, I can't find enough reliable sources on the guy to merit an article. Vickser (talk) 06:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.